sam winchester meta

denugis:

spectaculacularmooseketeer:

bessinadress:

Um…kind of think Kevin has the right considering that violation resulted in his death. Just sayin’…Kevin isn’t mad at Dean and he is dead. Sam is still alive, yeah, Dean crossed a major line, but, if the dead guy can forgive, I think Sam can too.

Still doesn’t mean Sam should react the same way Kevin does. They have very different histories. It’s not fair to say that just because I didn’t think it was a big deal nobody else should either.

Yeah, it’s a dangerous misreading and oversimplification to say that because Kevin suffered the most extreme consequence of Dean’s actions (death), he has the right to set the terms of forgiveness. For one thing, Kevin’s death was an accidental side-effect of Dean’s decision, Sam’s violation was not. Dean didn’t deliberately choose to murder Kevin. He did deliberately choose to violate Sam. So I would say that despite the fact that Kevin suffered the most final consequence, Sam was more and more directly wronged by Dean.

Moreover, when it came to Kevin’s death Dean acknowledged the injury to Kevin, expressed regret, and apologized. I don’t have huge faith in the idea of the magic apology, and I’m not sure that Dean had really distinguished the things he himself truly was responsible for in Kevin’s death from the primary responsibility of Metatron and Gadreel so as to get past his own tendency to use guilt to evade responsibility and change, but at least there was some groundwork on Dean’s side for forgiveness. When it comes to the violation of Sam, Dean’s last word on the subject as of Captives – and that hasn’t changed as of now, since Dean’s closest (not-very-close) approach to an apology in 9.23 only covered the last couple of months, not the Gadreel possession – was that he was right and would do what he did again.

The message that Sam and Dean are both still alive and therefore there still exists the hope that they can resolve the issues between them and move on to a better relationship isn’t a horrible message. But the idea that that could be accomplished by Sam, who was the injured party, forgiving the noncon possession, mindwiping, and gaslighting and moving on is both meaningless and distasteful. There are some circumstances in which unilateral forgiveness is a healthy thing, but when we are talking about an ongoing relationship and an injurious behavior that the perpetrator has explicitly reserved the right to repeat, ‘forgiveness’ would in this instance be Sam acquiescing in his own abuse.

(I am very, very doubtful about the prospect of canon ever really dealing with this, so I think the central relationship of Spn is going to continue to be a queasy horror show, but even if Kevin in Captives does represent authorial voice, that doesn’t make it right. It makes it all the more terrifying.)

Source: spnaturalconfessions

fangirlfromtartarus:

I’m just having a lot of Sam feels right now … because of the thing with Crowley. Obviously, Lucifer is pissed at Crowley and apparently he thought the most fitting punishment would be

degradation, from collaring and chaining him, to dressing him in unbecoming clothes (a way to further exert total control over him), to keeping locked up yet easily accessible, to calling him “doggie.” (Crowley was also clearly beaten, but that’s not relevant)

So with this new bit of information we’ve learned that apparently this is what Lucifer does to punish his enemies, to people who REALLY piss him off. He dominates, degrades, and humiliates them.

And what would piss Lucifer off more than Sam taking back control, and then throwing him back into the cage?

God … poor Sam …

galacticberries:

So I think I figured what bothered me so much about the new episode, and it was how Sam reacts to Dean.

Sam throughout the past 2 episodes had a strong, commanding presence. He was concise and direct with his orders and he mitigated like a boss. He took care of Nick despite the obvious reasons to want someone else to, he helped Jack feel more comfortable in his own skin, and he managed to keep it all together.

I get that this is because no one else could. Sam needed to step up and lead despite how much it scares him, and I would be okay with Sam relaxing and letting Dean take over that role. Him just stepping back to let Dean step up would be fine, and expected even. But how the show handles it bothers me.

Sam doesn’t just step back, but he’s meek and apologetic throughout the episode. He’s saying sorry for every little thing that happens, as if Sam’s waiting for Dean to say “This is where you fucked up. This is where you turned into a monster”, like Dean has done every time he left.

I mean Sam is stuttering and fumbling over his words. He is jumpy and antsy. He quite literally stands behind Dean the entire episode. Sam wanted to wait for Cass but Dean insisted they leave. Sam wanted to wait tell morning but Dean insisted they hunt now. Sam wanted to slow down but Dean insisted the push forward.

Once, Dean listens to him and that’s only because Jody is there. He would have bulldozed right past Sam if she wasn’t right beside him.

And this is the problem, Dean does not care about Sam right then. He cares about Dean and he has no regard for how Sam is feeling or how Dean’s actions are affecting him. This is not an inherently bad or selfish thing, after what he went through Dean has every right to be grumpy and angry and pissed.

But that’s not really why I’m upset.

I’m upset because every single season Sam is hyperconscious of how his actions are affecting Dean, or Bobby, or Cass. Sam apologizes for every little things and it’s because Dean told him that he only fucks shit up. I mean season 8 was all of that coming to a head to address what it was doing to Sam. Dean hasn’t ever gotten this kind of criticism until Kaia this season, but even his was given in a more sympathetic tone than Sams.

If the show addresses how quickly Sam backs down, or gives up control, and how Dean does nothing to stop it, then I’m actually super happy with this episode. I would absolutely love if this is addressed and it’s this whole arc delving into why Sam is acting like that, because it’s not actually out of character for him to do this.

But I don’t trust like that, I know how this show treats Sam. I’m just waiting for the narrative to villainize Sam for acting like a normal human again